Ruby Nakamura (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
by_candlelight) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
maskormenace2019-11-28 08:30 pm
by_candlelight) wrote in maskormenace2019-11-28 08:30 pm
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So. I not seen anyone say yet and that's real bullshit. But I personnnally am thankful as fuck that we had some people willing to ignroe the highers-ups who insisted 'Let's keep the twins as as far away as possible' ad brought the twins to Jeopardy. Chances are we would be 100^ fucked otherwise.
So here's a shout out to those among us who both had the power to go against the main guysand weren't too chickenshit or stuck with their heads fucked upped their own metahorical ass to do so.
[ Ruby isn't trying to stir shit, per se, but she makes the post knowing full damn well it might. It is nearly midnight when she posts, and she is sleep-deprivation drunk, and it really does seem like a much better way to go about thanking the people who saved their asses, than, say, messaging them personally. She also really hopes she used all the curses correctly.
She will possibly regret this come morning. The typos, if not the message itself. ]
So here's a shout out to those among us who both had the power to go against the main guysand weren't too chickenshit or stuck with their heads fucked upped their own metahorical ass to do so.
[ Ruby isn't trying to stir shit, per se, but she makes the post knowing full damn well it might. It is nearly midnight when she posts, and she is sleep-deprivation drunk, and it really does seem like a much better way to go about thanking the people who saved their asses, than, say, messaging them personally. She also really hopes she used all the curses correctly.
She will possibly regret this come morning. The typos, if not the message itself. ]
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[ Oh boy, positive reinforcement of ideas she holds strongly coming from someone she's pretty sure is an adult? She refuses to let it show how much that encourages her. It would be embarrassing! ]
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Sometimes, the answer is clear, and sometimes not.
Being sure of your answer, and knowing where you stand is important, though.
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The answer isnt always going to be the same. It isnt always going to be obvious. This time it was though and a small group of people put their feelings and morals over the lives of an entire universe if not more than one and a lot of us just let them do it. We had to be bailed out by people who shouldn't have had to to begin with.
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But I think you are making some assumptions.
We have no idea whether or not the other idea would have been accepted, because it did not have to be. Two people who others decided had to be who would be chosen were brought in, despite others attempting to save those people from that choice.
We do not at this time, and probably never will know whether or not the Fates would have been willing to go with the Imports who were willing sacrifices or not. Because it was never given a chance.
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When a god asks for a specific sacrifice to help save the world you dont try to weasel your way out of it and expect good results. This was not a case of saving a few people, or even half the planet, or even just 99% of the planet. This was all of this reality, and to take such an obviously poor gambit to start with was dangerous and selfish considering it was motivated by personal feelings. If it werent for the guys who brought the twins we would all very likely be dead. The entire universe we are in right now would very likely be dead.
Im not saying people cant be selfish. Thats up to them in the end. But it would be nice if we could stop pretending that 'I was willing to let the universe be destroyed because sacrificing two children would make me feel like a bad person' is somehow noble.
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Gods have a tendency to say a lot of things, and often those words are not direct, and when they are direct, they are lies. Having dealt with gods before, I can tell you that they can be fooled, and they often want things other than what they actually say.
I think you are taking a dim view of their motivations. Saying 'I was willing to let the universe be destroyed because', instead of 'I was willing to try and take a chance on saving these children even in the face of destruction'.
Your way of putting it is one point of view, but it is hardly the truth entire.
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I've dealt with gods too. Sometimes gods lie, yes. But a lot of the time it's about reading between the lines. Gods are a big part of my world. Until three or four generations ago they had regular contact with us, even if not as much as way back when. Gods like the fates don't lie, they speak in riddles. They are the beginning, the middle, and the end and to deal in falsehoods would be to their own detriment. This is based on how gods of that particular type work in my world, yes. But I'm going to take a chance and say my world's fates are just as valid a reference point as your world's.
"I'm willing to risk billions of sapient lives for two who will die anyway if it doesn't work" isn't any better, you know that right? In the end it was based on their feelings, and while I'd be less angry if it weren't an entire universe, once you get to numbers this big you can't sit there and let your feelings be the guide over reason and expect people to think that's okay. Maybe Batman could live with knowing 'At least I held up my morals' if over 7.5 billion people died over an attempt to save two children, who would die with the rest of them if it failed, but I think it's perfectly fair for the rest of us to point out how fucked up that is.
Well obviously. But I'm not going to stop arguing my case just because other outlooks exist, and I'm not going to pretend my outlook is any less valid without proper evidence.
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I've met the fates, and I've met gods. My experience does not jive with yours at all.
And again, you change the words to make it worse, to make it more weighted in the direction you want it to be, the negative one. Argue all you want, but do it honestly. Don't change the words your opponent uses in order to alter the intent and to lean that intent the way you see it.
In the worst moments, in the last second of death, or life, or something worse? Our morals and what we believe in is the only thing that matters. As long as we are willing to learn, and grow, and change, those things are the single most important parts of us.
In the end, your argument is not valid, while your opinion is. Your argument is still entirely made on assumptions. Assumptions that you keep trying to insist are the most likely ones, the most heavily weighted toward being the right ones. Until that changes, I see no reason to continue this at all.
If you ever do, I would be willing to continue. Until then. Goodbye.
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I met one of the fates here, and I worked closely with a god for over a year back in my world, and spent a few minutes at the mercy of a second. We clearly come from worlds where gods act differently. And the fates that were here aren't from either of our universes, so we don't really have any way to say which one of us is more accurate on these specific three. Can we agree on this?
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. In this instance 'I wanted to take the chance to save these lives' and 'I was willing to sacrifice it all for these two lives' is the same thing. I'm not trying to say this is what was going through Batman's head when he made this choice. If it sounded like that's what I was trying to say, that's my fault for bad wording. I'm arguing in a language that isn't my own. If I were in the same position and chose 'try to save the children', I would also be choosing 'risk the lives of everyone in this universe' as a mater of consequence.
In the end I would rather suffer the consequences of sacrificing two lives than to make everyone else suffer the consequences of my conscience. That isn't morals, that's not putting my own feelings above the lives of other people. In the end sometimes you have to do the things that make you feel like a monster, because if you don't everyone dies and it's your fault. The morals of a few people are nothing in the face of the lives of billions of people.
The thing is you aren't explaining how my argument isn't valid. Or if you are you aren't doing it in a way I understand. My assumption isn't 'Batman wanted to kill everyone if it meant saving two children', my assumption is 'Batman wanted to save the twins so badly he was willing to take the chance that everyone would die'. 'Batman' being a stand in for the people who made the decision to take this chance, since he was kinda the face of the operation. I don't see how that isn't factual, unless we assume that they just didn't believe it was highly probable that the outcome was 'no one will die if we get this wrong', which is sort of frightening because that is a really big assumption to make when you have experts talking about how this can kill literally everyone and possibly effect other realities as well.
The majority of my assumptions are made based on the data I have. In the end your argument is made on just as many assumptions, unless you have data I don't that you aren't willing to put forward for some reason. At which point in time you're arguing with data I don't have, and expecting me to have that data. You also seem to have decided that my data from being on the scene when this went down is somehow less valid than whatever data you do or do not have, even though you said yourself you weren't there when it happened.
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[ People were hypocrites. Hell, she was a hypocrite at times too. But being willing to beat the shit out of a teenager who disagrees with them was just on another level. ]
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but there is always gonna be people like us 2. to unfuck them & they great principles
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If there's ever a next time I hope I'll be of more use. I don't have the power to go grab people so I just have to try to be a voice of reason.
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and maybe that shit won't happen again. a guy can hope.
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I'll keep my eyes open for ways I can contribute to the teamwork if there's a next time.
You and me both. I prefer when the stakes aren't 'all of reality'.