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[liverletdie]

Recent events have me thinking.

[ Stark says, taking a sip from his cup, before he focuses back on a camera. It's a lot more HD than your usual import camera -- then again, nothing but the best for Tony Stark. ]

In recent months, we've had people showing up, different times, completely different people, and now there's word of people sticking around. That's different, it's never happened before. [ A pause, a sip. ] But who knows, it could be a fluke, right? Or maybe I don't have complete data. Anyone else heard of anything like that happening?

I mean, that's as an aside. I've... I've seen a lot of people hold themselves responsible -- myself included -- for things that someone who isn't them did. Either a person they become, a person they were and aren't anymore -- or a completely different person.

Would you hold them responsible? After my...unfortunate incident I found people were holding me responsible for things that this -- different version of me had done. Is that a constant? Should people be held accountable for things that they weren't necessarily guilty of? If I'm ported out tomorrow, would the Tony Stark that replaces me be held accountable for anything I did over my time here?

[ Another pause then. His finger drums against the glass. ] Anyone have any thoughts?

Comments

Video; hey bossman

[knifecollecting]

[Jo has to think things over, considering it for a while.]

But who is responsible in that case?

Video;

[liverletdie]

The person who actually did it?

I hate to break it to everyone here, but sometimes, crimes go unpunished.

not here

[sidecars]

[ BUT IF HE WERE >:| ]

video;

[helpline]

[ paaaaaaaaaaause ]

No, they shouldn't stick around, whoever's supposedly stuck around is an outlier and should not have been counted.

video;

[liverletdie]

Sure, they shouldn't, but if they did, shouldn't we figure out the why and the how?

We might be able to figure out how to get home, if we unlock the secrets to the porter.

voice;

[mathemagier]

It's not a new question, particularly in the case of amnesiacs. There's no straight or correct answer, really.

Personally, I believe in accountability in most cases. But forgiveness for wrong-doings may well come easier under such outstanding circumstances.

voice;

[liverletdie]

But should they actually be held accountable? For something they didn't do?

I don't care about forgiveness, I care about justice.

video | id reads "karen starr"

[boobwindow]

[ That's... a complicated question. Barbara Gordon is here, but she's not the same Barbara who forced her hand those years ago. A part of her wants to be angry, but it does feel rather unjust. ]

It depends, I think, on what they did.

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[liverletdie]

Does it, though?

I mean, if I get replaced by a... a different version of myself, who thinks he's Dr. Doom, and go on a killing spree?

Should I be held accountable for that?

Text;

[insinerate]

It would be unjust to punish someone for a crime they did not commit, and completely negligent to refrain from observing potential perpetrators if there is any reason whatsoever to suspect them or someone of their likeness of wrongdoing.

[Says the criminal in prison.]

Text;

[liverletdie]

I agree.

[ Says the man who runs a global security directorate back home. ]

I can't believe YOU'RE the first person who gets it.

[ Text ]

[greenisthecolorof]

That's really hard to answer. Maybe they shouldn't, but that doesn't mean that it's that easy for other people to do.

[ Text ]

[liverletdie]

No, of course not.

If life were actually that easy, we'd probably be a lot less miserable, don't you think?

video

[catchacold]

People can't get over how I look. I don't know if I should be held accountable for not being the ugly bastard my other self apparently is.

[There's also someone blaming him for a murder he hasn't committed, but really, the face is what's most cumbersome so far.]

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[liverletdie]

Truly, you're suffering. [ Said dryly. ]

I can't imagine how ugly he must be, considering...

video;

[earnedmystripes]

You can't hold someone accountable for something they didn't do. That doesn't make sense.

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[liverletdie]

Right? That's precisely my point, but it looks like quite a few people think otherwise.

Which... really just sounds like they're a bit petty.

[backinakidflash]

Kiiiiiinda struggling with that concept myself? Tony - can I call you Tony, because if I have to use the word 'stark' I am going to pun -

It's like this. The right answer is no. If you want to be all politically correct about it, yeah? The answer's totally no.

But the real answer is yes. Because now you know what people are capable of. It's always going to be floating around in your head that someday your friends are gonna snap and take over the western seaboard. Or that there are murderers just wandering around this stupid world with their shiny little hero badges getting treated like they don't belong on the bottom of a shoe.

I don't know you, so I can't judge. But. I think my point's that you shouldn't be held responsible or be surprised when you are judged.

[liverletdie]

I agree, entirely, and you actually get it.

People are messy, and complicated, but if we're supposed to be showing ourselves as the example, shouldn't we be working to become better than that?

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[monster_san]

As far as a person's own self is concerned... logically, I don't think they should hold themselves responsible for the actions of an "alternate" version. I don't think the justice system ought to, either. Clearly, what happened was a genuine phenomenon, not an outlandish alibi. And if Miss Porter replaces one person with their alternate, that alternate shouldn't be blamed for something they never did.

But emotionally, it would be hard to avoid the question why would I do that. And when someone else is looking at someone with the same name, and the same face, as a person who did them wrong, it's instinctive to think 'this is the person who hurt me.' Or, if you left and a different Mr. Stark arrived, it would be hard for people not to have preconceived notions of him... whether good or bad.

That, I think, would happen, but I don't think people should allow that instinct to guide them.

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[liverletdie]

Oh believe me -- I just recently went through something like that -- a few months ago.

[ A pause, then. ]

And I don't mean that we shouldn't try to make up for it, but the distinction seems to be missing -- from other parties most of the time. Probably because we let our emotions get in the way.

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[superposition]

[dryly] Well, I'm sure you're already aware of my feelings on the subject.

A different "you" is still you, one way or another. Where are you meant to draw the line? What's the threshold at which you become no longer yourself? It's absurd.

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[liverletdie]

Is it really that absurd? A lot of people disagree with you, me included.

Look, I get it. There is a line, if I'd never become Iron Man, I would likely still be me -- but the choices we make can make a huge difference, or the things that happened to us. Someone I knew thought he was an assassin -- because he'd forgotten all the time that he'd undone their brainwashing.

Don't you think forcing him to do time isn't right? I do.

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[divaricate]

This is probably going to be one of those things that I say, and you keep on recording forever to occasionally play it back to me to never let me live it down, but whatever. [There's a flash of a half smile.]

On the 'completely different person' note of things ... yeah, you're the only Tony Stark I've encountered here, but as far as the one I'm familiar with in my universe, even though you're not the same Tony, I obviously put a lot of my dislike of him onto you here. Something I'll admit is not exactly fair and is also something I'd like to be doing less of. [But she's great at holding grudges ok, regardless if they're justified or not.] But, it should be noted that I don't want to kill you, so I don't hold all my hate of him to you. [YEP, she'd be all too ready to crush the Tony of her universe under something heavier than cars if she got another shot at it.]

So, I guess my short answer is accountable to a degree, but probably not completely.

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[liverletdie]

Well, you do know that once the version of you I know forced me to relapse on my alcoholism, right?

[ It's said, dryly. ]

So I think we're both a little guilty of that. Not that I don't disagree, that we all do it, but maybe we should look at the emotions, and start with clear heads -- then again...

We're not always capable of that, are we?

video

[23wishes]

Forgive and forget, in my opinion. [A shrug.] People should be forgiven, especially if they've done nothing wrong. It's unfair otherwise.

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[liverletdie]

Kind soul, huh? I don't know many people who are actually that willing to forgive. You'd do it for anything?

[ video ]

[hostage]

Somebody's always gonna want blood.

I mean, it's not like justice is really about getting criminals to turn over a new leaf. If it was, we'd be locking 'em in college or something, giving 'em a nice room and making 'em read books for twelve hours a day. But nobody does that. Instead, criminals get locked up in a cell and spend every goddamn day worrying about who's gonna fuck 'em or shank 'em, and everybody on the outside feels great about it 'cause they got what they "deserve". It's about making somebody - anybody - suffer for what happened.

And nobody really cares if that guy remembers what he did. He's like a voodoo doll. He's a punching bag. They're just taking their feelings out on something.

[ video ]

[liverletdie]

As someone who's always firmly believed in reformation over just criminal punishment...

You're absolutely right. We like to have that sense of justice, to make people feel like they're paying for what they've done. As much as we like to think we're better than that, we're... not, actually. I wish we were, but...

[airshow]

Tricky question!

[ If it's possible to sound chipper and bitter at the same time, James is managing it. ]

As far as I'm concerned, the people who blame other-you or other-me or other-whoever for whatever it is they did? Don't want justice, they want punishment and satisfaction. Because it makes them feel better to have someone to blame, even if it's not actually the someone who did it. Same face, same name, so who gives a rat's ass if it's the same guy.

[liverletdie]

Yeah? If it looks like a duck and talks like a duck, it must be a duck?

That kind of simple logic never gets us anywhere, does it? You ever been through something like that? Where people won't let someone move on?

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[112ounces]

No.

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[liverletdie]

That's it?

Just no?

video;

[givetheslip]

Did you do this thing or not? If you did, you're responsible. If not, you aren't. It's not that complicated.

video;

[liverletdie]

Well, if only all of us lived in a black and white world like that.

Private

[incogneto]

As far as I know, there's at least two direct future versions and two alternates of myself. I'd say that not only did those other selves influence other people, but they influenced me too.

I'll hold you only accountable for what you don't learn from that other Tony, if you offer me the same courtesy.

[ aka the amount of times 616 magneto has shit the bed like, can we just erase that from the record? ]

encrypted

[liverletdie]

Well, I don't know... What if you're going to end up the same as the person I know?

[ A pause. ]

But, alright. I think I can extend to you the same courtesy.

Video

[bindsthedead]

I don't think people should be punished for things they haven't done. But I'd be lying if I said past experiences didn't color my perceptions of them, even if it wasn't exactly them.

Video

[liverletdie]

Yeah. I know.

It's hard, isn't it? I honestly don't think there's an easy answer, here, but if the past few... experiences have been anything to go by, we might want to think about this as a whole, and figure out what we should do from here.

[inmyothertights]

Jesus Christ.

[liverletdie]

What?

[slightlyoffchilt]

Behavioral patterns are nothing if not indicative. That ought to be held responsible.

[liverletdie]

So, you're saying... look at how they act as a whole, right?

If someone's really off, we should give them consideration to maybe not treat them like the monster they were temporarily?

Or vice-versa, as the case may be.

video; un: starlabs

[harrisonwells]

Well. [Harrison looks a little on the terrible side. It's been a Time. And why would he be sleeping well when there are powers to goddamned master?]

As far as I'm aware, my doppelganger in Heropa didn't do anything more heinous than teach at the university, here. Back home, I'm wanted for murder and got kidnapped by a metahuman who mistook me for him and demanded a cure, which— [He spreads his hands, then leans forward again, chin resting on one hand.] —you know I couldn't give him. And it wasn't until I arrived here that he stopped using my name. He's still using my face.

...thing is, the meta back home. Griffin Gray. I didn't make him into a metahuman on that Earth, but I still made a lot of people into metahumans on mine, and for all I know he was one of them, so it was. Easy. To take that one on too. So. Whatever that's worth.

video;

[liverletdie]

Messy. [ Seriously. He had to pause, and calculate that one. ]

The offense, though, it sounds like it added to a guilt you already had, right? [ There's a pause, while he considered it. ]

You did something similar, but not the murder, I assume, yeah? I don't know if you should really be taking on the burden for murder, or kidnapping, even if you look like the person who did it.

Voice

[purple_reign]

It's...an interesting question. In my own world I'd be held responsible for the things past recurrences of Inanna did. I am Inanna, but here... I don't know if it's quite the same. Certainly not if it's something no one expects.

Voice

[liverletdie]

But did you do the same things back there? Did you remember doing them? [ A pause. ]

What did they even do?

Video

[smoking_analyst]

If it's a different you, it's someone else entirely. They might have the same name and look, but if they're different it's kind of obvious. We do enough stuff on our own without really needing any help with what to be blamed for right?

Video

[liverletdie]

Well, if it were that simple, sure.

But... judging from the opinions here, it's really not that simple, even for those of us who've experienced it. I mean, it may be just a you, or a me, that almost happened but didn't. Or maybe we're similar? Or maybe we'll become that in the future.

Import life never has a black or white answer, unfortunately.